Category: Dating and Relationships
Hello, do you think it is important to know about your partner's past relationships? What difference would it make in the current relationship with you? I wouldn't ask, because I know that when he's comfortable around me he will say as much as he wishes; after all, he/she has the right to keep things to themselves, right?
I think that everything has its time and place. I never want to pry into my partner's past, but if he decides to divulge anything or even everything, sure I'll be interested. I think if you're in a long term relationship, it can be crucial to understand your partner's past, so that you can better understand his current hangups . So that you can better understand how to deal with any problems or occurances that may arise in the current relationship.
But like I said, everything has it's place and time. If the couple is close, things eventually are revealed. They're talked about, braught up, dealt with. I never really meant to find out about my partner's past involvements, but I ended up knowing quite a lot over time. That's because he's a teller of anecdotes and we're very close; We can talk about pretty much anything. I've pieced a lot of things together from his past, regarding relationships and even flings, etc. But I've never pried; I never buried my nose deep into his past and coaxed anything out of him. In some cases, I know more than I wanted to initially. But it all helps me understand him better. In the end, I feel honored that he'd entrust me with his past, and now that we've been together as long as we have, none of that really makes much of a difference. I have so much history with him at this point that it overrides any of the mistakes, mishaps, hangups, lapses in judgement either of us may have had with other partners. And if either of us happened to have had some serious involvements, past loves gone wrong, etc. Which we both have, then all the better. Everyone deserves some happy memories, a bitter sweet history or two before they become involved with someone on an even more serious level.
I'm not a fan of people compartmentalizing things because I prefer openness an honesty in exchange for the exact same from me, so I guess I'm glad he's told me so much, maybe more than he should have in some cases.
That's what best friends are for, no? And no matter how pathetic some people may view this next statement, I do consider my partner my best friend. With all we've been through in these past few years, I cant' see him as anything less. lol
I absolutely agree with yoy, which is why I said that it takes time and eventually he/she'll tell you his past the closer you are... congratulations! :) smiles
I agree with posts 1 and 2. You shouldn't dwell or worry about the past too much, but rather focus on the present and how your partner is treating your current relationship with him/her. People act differently when they are younger, and though some people continue with their same habbits, not everyone does.
another great point! :)
That is true. You can't always judge a person by what they've done in their past relationships, particularly if they were teenagers when they made certain mistakes. Now, if someone makes a habit of cheating on their partner, and they've done it for 5 or more years in each successive relationship, I would see a reason to worry. But there's a huge difference between developing a pattern out of a certain negative or destructive behavior, and making a mistake that you truly regret. I myself cheated on someone I had been in a relationship with for about 2 years. He didn't want to have sex until he was married, and I was frustrated, to put it mildly. I happened to meet someone who was coming onto me, and I was very attracted to him...Things just spiraled out of control, and even though it was only one time, I admitted what I had done to my then boyfriend. I broke it off, too, because I had been lying to myself for a long time about certain aspects of our relationship that I knew I couldn't come to terms with. Anyway, my point being, I made that mistake, and I still sometimes wonder what kind of person that makes me, but I also know that the guilt I cary will prevent me from ever going down that path in the future.
I don't care. If they want to tell me sure, but I don't need to know.
I agree with Burnadetta; time as place but in a long-term relationship, I think it can be important. The further into the relationship you are, you'll find you can simply talk about anything and it's all good. In the beginning, it's a bit hard to gage what your partner might think if you go asking too many questions.
Yes, it's all in how long you've been together.
I feel it can be helpful to know what's happened to our partners' hearts. It helps sometimes, to understand any hang ups they have regarding relationships. But I don't coax anything out of them. What they want to tell me is cool, whenever they wish to tell me. Obviously, bigger things are nicer to knoe at the beginning, so I can make an informed decision. As far as relationships, i'm not in any hurry. To me, it's not about racing madly to the finish line. Rather, it's about the journey it takes to get there. I'd rather have a strong, loving relationship with someone than all the money in the world, and to me, revealing things about your past is a part of all that. It doesn't define who you are, but it certainly can help to know where they're coming from, in my opinion.
Take Care,
Dawnielle
What if a woman was sexually abused or raped, do you think it's important to tell your longterm partner? And, when do you think it's time to tell him?
If the woman feels as though the relationship will get serious, it's best that she lets him know. That way he understands, if things don't seem right, and he will be able to try and be there for her as much as he can. It is a touchy subject, but any positive relationship should entail both partners sharing things with each other, and feeling comfortable doing so.
I think the woman should be open about the fact she was raped, whether she's in a committed relationship, or just a friend with benefits type of relationship. there isn't, and shouldn't, be a set time frame on when she should make it known, though. as long as she's comfortable with doing so, that's all that matters.
If she is planning to be intimate with the man she should tell him right away.
Sex is an emotional thing, and if she should have some issue while there intimate, or something he'll know why and not feel she's having some issues he doesn't know about or understand.
yes, that's an exception, for sure. I was just speaking generally, in my last post.
Agree, ryan! No wane and chels, I don't think a woman should tell a partner right away, even if it's a friend with benifits, no. It should be the woman's choice, when she feels comfortable. I mean, because in my opinion, one doesn't meet a man and plan on being intimate right away. And I'm speaking of the committed relations, the partners, not the so called friends with benifits deriving from pure desire. I think if it's and before she becomes intimate with her partner, yes, she could tell him.
I think that with anything, abuse, or just relationships in general, either partner tells the other when he/she is ready to do so. Some more serious things may seemingly be better to tell once the relationship starts to get serious, but also those things can be incredibly hard to talk about, so it might have to wait. It all depends.
Dolce, if a woman is raped, yes, her partner needs to be told right away so that he knows why certain issues are cropping up, and can better help her adjust/deal with them. to say otherwise is not only ignorant, but shows you haven't thought clearly about this.
bottom line: if she isn't ready to tell a partner that she has been raped, she shouldn't have sex with him yet, either. it's all part of caring for herself, and making sure she heals properly.
I think what Dolte is saying is before you are intimate you should say, and that I totally agree with.
I got a bit confused when she said in a friends with benefits relationship a woman doesn’t have to say, only in a committed one, and I assume you mean only if you are talking, but in both cases for sure before you are intimate?
In general discussions the topic doesn’t need to come up, but I feel anytime you are deciding to be intimate you should do some sexual discovery, or talk about your history. You don’t have to give details, but I think it is important to talk about your thoughts about sex and your place in it, so if you were raped that be part of discovery
Thank you, wane. Chelsea, once again, please, for the love of all valuable things, if you have any, stop jumping to conclusions too quickly. Of course I've more than thought about this, and All I was saying, is that it should be her choice about when she should tell him, and I think it's important.
Oh, I forgot to add... You don't heal right away, and thus, she'll decide when she's ready to have sex with her partner and then tell him, but sex isn't everything in a relationship, nor is it the most important. Also, not all partners will hbe as accepting, and it too becomes harder to talk about. The rest is just textbook, repeting trama by using guys just for sex, it's very comun.
dolce, maybe you should take your own advice and stop jumping to conclusions, yourself. I'm simply sharing my thoughts.
sex isn't everything, but it sure does make or break everything. of course, only people who have had sex will understand that, though. just saying.
Actually, Chelsea, excuse me, but I think you share your thoughts with superiority, yes, jumping to conclusions by refering to people who don't share your points as stupid, ignorant or idiotic, when in reality, your actions have proven who you really are, exemplifying your own words... I too think that being an aquisitive, pertinacious and ruthless being is rather poisonous, thus, aching your entire existence. I think, sadly, that's really the uncurable problem. So with that said, what I'm trying to point out, is that people have their healing process, their own time to give themselves intimately and to share difficult experiences with a partner, again, if one is confident about oneself and their partner, then comfort in sharing these things easier.
well said, dolce. If you want to discuss certain things from your past with your current partner, that's fine, as long as you are comfortable doing so. It should not be a requirement. Personally I'd rather leave the past behind and move forward, and focus on living in the present.
Earlier, I was just speaking in terms of a committed relationship. I do feel however that the person who was raped needs to bring it up before the first sexual time with their partner. I have not been raped so it's hard for me to think of how it would affect my sexual experiences when I have not experienced it myself, however that is what I would do if that was me.
read your own words, dolce. you said "I think," therefore, you're jumping to conclusions. you've never spoken to me, so I suggest you either stop right there, or perhaps think outside your prudishness for a second, and ponder perspectives that differ from yours.
being raped is an exception, and something that, contrary to what some here believe, can't just be moved forward from. part of moving forward, is talking about it/sharing your concerns with whoever you're gonna be intimate with.
I seriously hope those of you who feel one can just move forward without doing so, never have to encounter a partner who has been raped. I doubt they'd feel comfortable having such a discussion with people who show such a lack of compassion.
Okay, I have to post with a touch and go view here with out spilling to much of the wife and I's sex life but if you do not tell your partner about what happen in the past, some times during sex a switch gets flipped on and the partner your having sex with is clueless as to why your reacting odd.
Here is more about why I think telling someone you were raped matters.
Sex alone is complicated for many people. Adding rape to it, makes it even more complicated. Neither one has to be, but the facts stand.
Rape carries a stigma for some men. It is like telling a man you were, or are a prostitute. Men don’t want their main woman to be used goods. A prostitute is a prostitute, and a girlfriend, or prospective wife is different. Why? I have no idea.
On the other hand the woman might have issues with regular sex. This is especially true if she has only had the rape as her sexual experience and not sex for pleasure or love.
A woman needs to know her partners level of acceptance before she sleeps with him to save her much heartache. If she tells him after the fact, or down the road at some point, and he totally rejects her that would be extremely painful, and she now has to deal with that on top of the rape. It could even cause her to fall back in to selfdoubt.
A man needs to know so he can decide if he’s willing and able to deal with adverse effects due to sex if she should have any. It is fair to tell him at what level you have healed.
This discovery solves lots of problems no matter the women’s level of healing. You place the cards on the table, you set the boundaries, if need be. Hopefully doing so will make the regular sexual experience positive.
It is much like talking about your sexual preferences, or telling a person your level of sexual experience. Again, no detail need be given until you are ready, but I feel strongly the fact must be revealed.
I also think that a woman should not sleep with a man that shows any hesitation, or is too involved with details concerning the rape. If the conversation keeps coming up from his end, he probably isn’t comfortable with it. It be like his continually asking about your exe lovers in detail.
Yeah, and I would imagine a conversation about rape is probably never an easy conversation to have with someone in the first place. If other people can never really seem to understand what this kind of experience might be like for someone, then what exactly is the point of talking about it anyway?
The point is not talking about it, the point is letting your partner know about it before you are intimate. All that requires is making a statement. "I was raped, and I am at this point in my healing process." Nothing more need be said if you aren't ready.
You do need to talk about your healing point depending on where that is if it is not total.
Why deal with the possible negative results later if you don't have to?
Wayne is right. not just that, but if you're so willing not to talk about having been raped, what else are you willing to hide?
although I'm not a guy, I'd venture to guess that most guys feel similarly as Wayne, meaning they'd wanna know about such an event, for the reasons listed, as well as the fact that that'd potentially bring them closer to their sexual partner.
so, what if someone has never been raped, but has experienced a lot of emotional and verbal abuse throught their childhood? I think that can be just as damaging in some ways, especially if the emotional/verbal abuse is something they still struggle to overcome as an adult.
the same thing applies. they should talk about it, for their own well being, so they'll be able to heal, as has continuously been stated. no one is saying either subject matter will be easy, but that they can, and should, be discussed.
In this case that can be talked about anytime. It is not hinged on sex or intimacy, so whenever you are ready.
Now, if that causes you issues as far as relationships go it will come out in the day to day enteraction.
I guess I don’t necessarily see it as hiding something from someone. But I can understand how you might see it that way. I just don’t understand why someone would want to have a weird awkward conversation about something they may not know how to talk about in the first place with someone who most likely will not stick around after you tell them. I just don’t see the point in having that conversation.
Witnessing your cruel actions twards people, how you treat those of no equal agreement with you with superiority, echoing agreement to other's posts, constantly refering yourself as a know it all, and at points, showing your true colors, oh without a doubt, are many reasons not to speak to you. Yes, I think, I said that I think, because I think, of giving you real reason why to say I've jumpped to conclusions, instead of opening your big mouth when really, that's all you can do. Prudishness? It's too bad, again, that this is a problem, but heh, luckkally and fortunately, not mine, yet to my disgrace I can see it, sorry. And wane, and you others, you have a point. Yet if I ask, is because I have a reason to do so, without using it as a badge of compassion.
yes, cause agreeing with others is such a horrible thing! lol.
crazy cat, how do you know the person wouldn't stick around, and why make such assumptions in the first place?
are you saying that, if faced with this sort of situation yourself, you'd rather the person keep the matter from you entirely, simply cause you perceive it's unnecessary to discuss?
I seriously don't understand why some have such an outlook, as to keep it swept under the rug. this is why society generally has a crappy outlook regarding rape, and verbal/physical abuse. people would rather not discuss those things, in hopes that that'll make them immediately cease to exist.
The notion that you believe I am simply making assumptions is nothing more than an assumption on your part. I am just simply stating my own observations in regards to this subject. However, you are more than free to disagree with me.
by that logic, we shouldn't discuss problems when they come up throughout life, since, for some people, communication isn't a strength of theirs. hell, by that logic, we shouldn't enter into relationships, period, since unforeseen things will certainly come up. also by that logic, we shouldn't ever try new food, since we don't know whether we'll actually like it or not.
I don't crazyCat was making assumptions. Because, well, in this world, just in case you don't know it, there are people who will react to your favor, and well, introducing to you, those who won't accept it, for not all people will feel they'll want to, just because you're chelsea, just because I'm milagros, just because she's her. . Saying it to your partner will not, by any means, guarantee he'll understand or be compassionate, or that he'll even have sex with you, for he could also step aside, excuse me. I don't think it's a requirement, but those who do, I can understand why. Again, the world will not revolve around us, and thinking that he might not be the way wh could expect him to be, is not being ignorant, it's, being realistic.
And what on earth does this have to do with trying new foods and not discussing problems? See what I mean? I think th1t what is not being understood, is that yes, it's important to tell one's partner, but not imediatly, it's her choice, and hers alone
Wow! As someone who claims to be a survivor of rape, I would think that you of all people would understand how rape and sexual assault can be a difficult subject for some people to talk about. In fact, I believe the inability for people to be able to talk about it with someone is probably one of the biggest reasons why some people never seek out help regarding their experience with rape, trauma, and abuse.
Sure agreeing with other people is horrible!, you know when? When you decide to act like you agree, even if you don't, when one is like a robot, I agree with you, once again, I agree, I agree, I agree with you, I agree, and reiterating other's points with different words instead of putting forth your independent thoughts, lol!
Cat. It doesn’t have to be a long discussion.
All is required is you say, “I need to tell you I have been raped before.”
Now several things will happen at that point.
You are not ready to talk about it futher, and it is up to the man to accept that.
You can tell he doesn’t like the fact and can’t deal with it, so your sexual relationship doesn’t continue.
He doesn’t make a big deal of it and the sexual relationship moves on, and he is able to deal with anything that happens after, because he knows and can’t say you didn’t tell him.
Here is the problem. People don’t say something like this because they are ashamed, or know if might cause someone to dislike them. The exact thing they feared comes to pass, and they feel bad.
You are angry because the guy didn’t understand me. He didn’t really love me like he said he did. He’s wronged me, or is wrong for leaving me.
It is your own fault, but you don’t want the blame for it. Is that fair?
Let me move it a bit further, suppose he had genital warts, but because these aren’t serious, life threatening, or anything, just a bother, he doesn’t tell you. You don’t get it for a while, maybe 6 months, but one day you do.
Let’s move it even milder. Suppose he’s been in prison for burglary, or he’s bi sexual? Would it be okay for him to tell you say after 6 months about these things?
“Oh, honey, buy the way, I need to talk to you about my having sex with other men from time to time.”
After you decide to tell him you were raped you want to blame it on him for feeling negative. “He didn’t really love me. Men are just pigs, and he never cared about me anyway.”
Why set yourself up for possible pain, when a few words could make the difference?
I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree on this one then. I understand from your point of view that simply stating that you have been raped before does not constitute talking about it. However, I see things differently. Even if you are only making one general statement about it, I still see it as talking about it. And for some people this may be vary difficult to do.
And, as stated in previous posts, if guys have some preconceived ideas about dating someone who has been raped, then I would think perhaps it just might be better for victims of rape to simply avoid the conversation altogether by not pursuing a relationship for a while. But then again, if men truly have preconceived ideas about dating women who are victims of rape, then perhaps they should stop raping women in the first place. But again, anyone is more than free to disagree with me.
so how do we as a society stop this vicious, horrific cycle of abuse? because it seems as though rape and other types of abuse are a lot more common than we realize. and obviously just talking about it is not enough to stop it or it wouldn't be such a problem.
Ok, wane. *sigh* Noone's saying, a woman shouldn't tell her partner, noone. Yes, before she decides to be intimate with her partner, if she feels she needs to tell him, she can and will. If the man had genital warts, is because he A. didn't use protection during sex by choice, B. Has been sleeping around or C. He didn't know he had it, though it's more comun for men, at least some sick pigs out there, to know they have an std and not say it to their partner. Now come on, wane, if you slept with another man, or many, will you really have the streight courage to tell the lady streight out, I had sex with men, being that some cheet on their ladies with other women, and that some also don't easally share their sexual experiences with their exes? You'd be lying to yourself, if you said you were to tell her right out the blue. Now if a woman was raped, on the other hand, it was not her choice and didn't look for nor choose to be raped by a rotten worthless person who used his power and strenkth over hers. And, do you seriously think it's an easy topic to discuss openly with her partner, after the horrible, traumatic unwanted experience? Of course if she decides she'll give herself time to heal, put things in their right place and move forward, then, maybe, it might be a bit easier, depending on how comfortable she feels sharing those things, because you know, you don't just share them with anyone. And, not every woman will act equally to this similar situations, some can handle it in a healthy manner, and others, use that as an excuse to repete their own trama by claiming to be sexually free, when in reallity, that behavioral pattern of using men for sex and then treating them bad is textbook, very comun. So yes, some of the treatment in heturn, can be the woman's fault, but leaving her because he couldn't understand why she didn't tell her before, is really week.
And if men don't want their women to be used goods, go screw a nun, then. Again, if a woman was a prostitute, is because she feels she needs to make love for a living, or because she simpley enjoys it. And no, it's not like saying she was a prostitute because she didn't choose to be raped, wane!, unless she was forced to be sold, but even then, it was not her fricken choice, get that into that mind of yours. Like rape, men should have the power, sexually in this case too, emotionally and willing to be with her even then? Why can't a woman have the power, or the freedom of choice, to decide when she'll tell him? I think that's selfish, and absolutely disgusting
and what if the woman got pregnant from the sexual assault, and chose to have an abortion? Should she have to disclose that to every single partner she has after that also?
Actually, also turning the tables around, how many men out there are really honest about telling his partner that he was with a lady and she got pregnant and they had an abortion, or even some, that they have kids and aren't even paying child support? Just saying.
So if you men have been dishing around, don't expect, what you are not doing so yourselves. So, if you want to be with her, is not cause of her past, but of who she is in the present with you, it shouldn't be a big issue.
wow, you guys that are acting like it isn't a big deal, or helpful to have such a conversation, are incredibly, and willfully, ignorant.
again, no one has said, or would say, that bringing up abuse, whether verbal or physical, or rape, are easy things to talk about. in fact, if you actually read through the posts clearly, as the good, caring people you wanna portray yourselves as, you'd see that I've been saying the opposite.
yes, as a survivor of all those things I listed, they were hard to talk about, at one point in time. however, mine, and Wayne's point, I'm sure, is that they A, don't have to remain hard, and B, the only reason they'd continue to be hard to discuss, is if people try to shut survivors up, either through telling them they don't wanna hear it, or by themselves displaying the attitude of, "it really isn't a big deal, so let's talk about pleasant things."
as I've also said in this discussion, generally speaking, there's no set time limit on when a survivor, male or female, should bring it up to their partner...unless they're planning to be intimate with him or her.
I can see your point of view, and I commend you for being courageous enough to seek out help. However, since it appears as though society as a whole seems to have a difficult time acknowledging the fact that rape, abuse, and sexual assault exist within our society, it can be difficult for some women to receive the help they need to heal from their experience.
It has been my observation that many people react to rape, abuse, and sexual assault in the manner you described in your second point. That is they try to shut survivors up by telling them they do not want to hear about it or that is really was not that big of a deal. If this attitude is prevalent within society as a whole, then could it be possible that not all women who have experienced this kind of trauma will be able to get the help they need in order to heal from their experience?
Again, I can see your point of view in that it is possible to receive help in this kind of situation. All I am trying to say is that even though the possibility may exist, it may still be vary difficult to do for a variety of reasons which may include social attitudes towards rape, abuse, and sexual assault.
I'm not going to get into the drama of agreeing or disagreeing with people on this board: I just have one simple point to make.
If you want to have a trusting relationship with someone, what makes you think you can have one without being totally honest with them. And furthermore, if someone is going to act unfavorably to you having been raped, why would you want to be with them in the first place. You've been through it, whether you like it or not. Not talking about it is not going to undo the deed. If you can't trust a partner with some of the horrible secrets your life dealt you, why be with them in the first place. That's like saying" I want to eat all the cupcakes I can without gaining an ounce of fat. With cupcakes come callories. Just as with intimacy comes trust. And that's coupled with honesty. If you can't handle being truthful with someone and you cant' trust them with your real story, you simply can't handle intimacy with them.
It's as simple as that.
If you choose to have a relationship with someone and not let them know about any profound experiences you may have been through, first of all, you aren't giving them the chance to know the real you, and secondly, you aren't giving yourself the chance to trust the person you claim you want to be with.
I can see how talking about traumatic experiences can be difficult, but part of healing is getting out of your comfort zone. You cant' say you've healed if you haven't dealt with the experience. You can't say you're all right if you fear rejection by those you want to be close with because of something that happened to you. sure, there will be people who will reject you. But better to know that sooner rather than later. What good is a relationship if it's based on one or several illusions rather than honesty and openness?
Ok, noone has said it'll always be a big deal or helpful for all women to discuss the matter, yet, that for some, it might take a greater deal of courage, strenkth and trust to do it, and not all feel that way. It's too bad that one only reads and stands out for what's convinient to them, missing other's points of view, which are valid. And I never said one should hide it from their partner, or that you should tell all the partners you encounter if the first one you tell leavs you, get it? No there shouldn't be a time limit for a person to tell her partner, even if she is intimate, for it shouldn't be required, period. You seeked help? Good for you, that's what you should do for yourself, because, noone was gonna do it for you. That shows that at least you care about yourself to some degree. Call me ignorant, Call me stupid, Call me idiotic, but guess what? Just because there are such references, does not, by any means, make me or others that way.
Oh of course, Bernadetta, you have a point. I'm not discarding the fact that one shall be honest with your partner, yet, that for some it's harder to talk about, because they heal in their own time, and, while I'd tell my partner before being intimate with him because I'd handle it in a healthy manner for the sake of my wall being and those around me, it's just harder for others, period.
myself***
Wow, this topic really blew up from the time I last read it. I agree with what Bernadetta has said before. I'd also like to add, for a question that was asked earlier, that I don't know if there is anything we can do to completely elliminate abuse. People will do as they will even if there were harsher punishments, as sad as it is that is the reality. However, we can help those who had to suffer.
I don't think there's anything that can be completely eliminated, especially abuse. However while sadly one never knows who they really will encounter in this world, if one starts by seeking help for oneself, and helping all that one can, it's a form of standing up for societty.
right on, Bernadetta.
also, a way to educate society, is by talking about these things, period. not just to our partners, but within our communities as a whole.
that's something I think is of utmost importance, and that, at large, is what's gonna make a difference in how people think about such issues, whether it's survivors, or a person on a street corner.
oh, and, what's this crap about women using men for sex, or prostitution being something women enjoy? that's one of the most ridiculous things I've heard in a while.
if you've ever read up on the subject of prostitution, you'd know that women typically don't enjoy it. they're doing it to make a living, cause, in their minds, that's all they have. or, perhaps they're unable to get a job as quickly as they need one, so in order to provide for their family, they're doing what they have to to get by.
Again, you've echoed what some of us had said her, see? And, did I say all enjoy it? No, but some feel they need to make a living, and others, enjoy it. Yeah, think about it, you, more than anyone know exactly what I'm talking about when I said that many women who havh been raped, communly feel they don't want to remain traumatised, thus, being sexually opened and some, use guys for such purpices, treating them badly or breaking up with them quickly, to repete, in a way, what has been done to them. It's ironic, but true, some handle it that way. I thought you knew this.
actually, you're wrong, dulce. most survivors do remain traumatized, which is why, as I keep saying, it's of the utmost importance for them to reach out. most don't wanna reach out, which is why I feel strongly that attitudes like yours should disappear, if not change for the better.
I'm a rare exception, in the fact that I'm very open, both sexually and in talking about my experience.
I don't want people to have to wonder, or flat out not know, any part of my life. cause, as Bernadetta said, if I'm silenced about things, I can't expect to be able to build trusting relationships with anyone, including myself.
Like I said, I don't think anyone should 2e scilenced about it, how many times do I have to point it out to you? Ok I'm wrong, because you say so, but I'm write, because that's what psychologists and therapists said, for they've dealt with many cases like ours. So there... I'm not disagreeing with bernadetta at all, you know.
so, since a psychologist says it, that makes it true? wow. what a load of crap.
I think the past plays a part but it's really nothing to dwell on. After all, our past shapes who we are in the present. This does not mean that we should sit and worry about the other person's privious relationships to the point where we become obsessed.
Are you any better? Or is it all about what you think, how you feel and because it's you, it's correct? Also, you see, even if I went through something like that, I'm not gonna be using it as a badge of...self-importance, nor will I be telling everyone in the world, you know, because you and I are not important to the entire world, heh, to each other, really. Because only the people who'll help me, who are important and of comfort to me, are the only ones who should know. Just saying.
Oh, and I forgot to add, I've encountered many women who follow that same thread, of course, a lot milder in cruelty
Dolce, I believe you are misguided. I realize you have your religion and ideology to defend here.
But the truth is, when rape survivors, or hurricane survivors, or other disaster / incident survivors do have the courage to speak up, they more often than not do two distinct things:
First, they make it possible for others to feel they have a voice, even if they themselves don't speak up. Second, they often educate the rest of us, at least those of us willing enough to be educated. And, more often than not, they do these things on the one hand, while on the other professing they did not set out to do these things. What people who speak up do is important for society as well as perhaps it may be for their well-being, though to that end I do not know.
Many of us who train for first response are actually quite grateful to people in these situations who are willing to speak up on what's going on, in whatever format, because it makes the response a lot more compassionate, intelligent and thought-out.
Especially when you have a situation like this where the person in question is responding in a way that your religion and ideology dictates that is outside the norm for someone in her situation. What you're doing is defending the norm, or the established practice. It's understandable to be uncomfortable with something quite so outside the box, especially for a Puritan Protestant or similar bent, but honestly, none of us is exempt: people who operate quite differently than the norm quite frankly force the rest of us to look at ourselves, and none of us likes to do that: not you, not me, not Chelsea, not anybody. Ultimately though it comes down to how we handle it, or not, as the case may be.
thank you, leo, for talking sense, and helping try to shed some light on this discussion.
I'm one of those you spoke of, who initially didn't set out to publicly speak about what I've been through. however, now that I've started to do so, I've been able to see the profound impact it truly does have on the world, and how thankful people are to know that there is not only hope, but a meaningful life, after what most deem tragic.
Lio, I see you made sence, however I don't have a religion, and, while I do have an opinion, yes, I defend it. So, I never said I'm against speaking up. And, I also didn't say I'm always right, because I've yet got a lot to learn, however, if you can disagree, I can too. Thank you though, lio.
Well I personally know someone who is an outspoken supporter of fire safety, and a volunteer firefighter, after his house burned down. And, he does not hide in a corner when there's a barbecue: he's like to be like any of the rest of us around the grill.
The difference is, though, since religion and ideology have nothing to say about fire, nobody tries to shut him up when he talks fire safety, or even when he said there was life after losing all your memorabilia and losing your house / potentially having your family get burned. And nobody thinks it odd that he does not shy away from fire, is not terrified of fire, and does not speak out against fire. If there was a 1984-style Junior Anti-Fire league, he would not be a member of it.
All this sounds silly to us, because we don't have ideology and religion that surrounds the use of fire, safe or otherwise. It's just a way to, in the method of many critical thinkers, take a step back and re-evaluate how we look at the situation. Before I knew Chelsea, I had assumed all rape victims to march in time with the proposed culturally-accepted method of dealing with their situation, even though I've known this guy for years after what happened to him, and nearly could have happened to members of his family had he not got them out in time.
Since I failed to think critically, I accepted the contradiction as though it were reality.
Of course he'd be like the rest of you in the grill, because not all grills burn. Of course someone like him, would have the courage to work with other people who's houses've burnt down, because like I've said, helping all that one can is a form of helping societty. But not all people who've been a victom of this are duing the same thing, yet, it doesn't mean they're not healing, or that they're hiding in a corner. I've never even pointed out, that women or people who've been through trajic situations, go hide in a corner, be isolated and never speak to anyone about it, for the umpteenth time. While things have been lost during the fire, it's no reason to do so, as difficult as it seems. Because hiding in a corner, dwelling on all the memorabilia that's been turned to ashes will lead one nowhere, but, extreme sadness and depression. I can see where you're coming from, though.
Some vary good points have been brought up here I’d like to talk about.
Let’s look at this statement.
If the man had genital warts, is because he A. didn't use protection during sex by choice, B. has been sleeping around or C. He didn't know he had it.
In this discussion he knows he has it no matter how he got it. He just doesn’t feel it is worth discussing, because A. she won’t catch it if he is careful. Or B. He is embarrassed to talk about his past, because he is hurt by it, and just can’t bare to admit he has a sexual disease. It is too painful, so he omits it.
Now suppose the person he contracted it from was his first sexual partner, someone he thought loved him. He didn’t use protection, because he trusted she had been open, clean, and honest with him?
She was also being careful, and she was going to get around to telling him soon as well, but it was just to embarrassing, so she hid it from him.
Can you see how if she had just been upfront from the start and totally open about her sexual history you’d not have gotten the warts?
Would you forgive him and continue to be intimate with him if you learned later, but were not infected, but now know he is?
You were only the second person he slept with, but because of all the hiding now all 3 of you must deal with something you really didn’t have to have at all.
You say, he’s weak for leaving you when you finally get around to telling him you were raped, but look at that statement, who’s actually weak?
How is right for a woman to withhold information, no matter how painful? What makes it right for you to do this, but not right for him not to except it?
You are going to share your body with someone, but you can’t make a simple statement?
The reason you can’t make that statement is because you know how society feels about it, right or wrong, and so you hide the fact and you are technically a liar. I didn’t make the rules of society, but I know that due to society’s opinions many people on both sides get hurt for simple reasons like this, withholding.
Let’s talk about society. In some countries, and even here, women are subject to a virginity test before a man will marry them. Before surgeons could fix you up, if you weren’t virginal, or could prove you didn’t lose your hymen by natural causes, a man wouldn’t marry you.
You could have been forced raped, but that didn’t matter, because you weren’t virginal, and he simply didn’t know your history, because, well, women lie!
In this scenario men are free to sleep with the whores, but when they settle down with the woman they want to marry they feel it is just to test them, and they don’t have to be tested. Women suffer much because of this ignorance.
I disagree with this, but it has some validness if you look at your willingness to hide facts.
You want honesty, you want a man to mean he loves you if he says so, but you can’t agree that you should share such an important fact with him before you become intimate, due to it being difficult?
Yes, I’m tell a woman if I were bisexual. I really feel my sexual history is important to my honesty and integrity. No, I won’t give her details, when, who, how, but I will tell her about it, and in the form of a conversation, or through several conversations about intimacy and our sexual togetherness. I strongly feel it is her right to know, so she can decide if she wants to be intimate with me.
I don’t see abortion as a sexual issue, that is a moral issue, so will be talked about when you are talking morals, religion, and such things. You don’t have a child that you have hidden, so it is like do you drink, smoke, believe in God, or not.
You point to textbook writing being facts, but in the real world some women actually enjoy being prostitutes. The enjoy the money, the freedom it gives them from a nine to five, and they enjoy the sex as well.
It is exciting to be wanted.
Prostition, if you were once one, can be added in to the conversation as sex partners, in that I have had many, and enjoyed them, or I didn’t enjoy them, but it also needs to be disclosed.
Again I say it is highly important to know how a person feels about you sexually before you get involved with them if you are trying to establish a lasting open honest relationship. If you are just having sex for sex sake, then you need only talk about your health. If that is not your aim, and you withhold facts, you will have to except the responsibility of rejection, and can not just say, he was wrongfor being angry and rejecting you.
Well, it wasn't his fault, because he didn't know his first person had transmited the std. So guess what? Because I'd expect to be forgiven, I would understand why he didn't tell me at firit and, yes. Now if you read my posts, I'd personally tell my partner before getting intimate, but some women feel they don't, to each their own, don't you think? Yeah, you say no matter how he got it in the beginning, because who cares, right? I sthongly stand by the fact that noone should tell a woman what to do, nor a woman shall expect him to accept a woman for not being honest in the first place. However, it's still, her choice and hers alone. Some partners will understand, and some won't, so be it, it's part of life. Again, while honesty is extremely important, maybe men should stop raping to begin with, thus, avoiding all these complecations. But the world isn't you or me, therefore, both men and women be equally honest, move on and live life.
Okay, I'm going to bring something up that we all dance around. It is the so called elephant in the room:
Beeing open has a double standard attached to it. I guess that is our society talking. Perhaps not, but this is how I view it. It seems that when a woman has, shall we say a lively past she is labeled a slut, a bed-hopper, etc. When a man has a similar history, well, he is just beeing a man. It's not right or fare but it is what it is.
And that's why I mentioned women having choices, weather resulting in positive or negative consiquences, because, it's interesting how someone claims men don't want their women to be used goods, refering to rape as saying one was a prostitute, yet, justifying that it didn't matter where he got the genital warts? See what I mean by the power? Yeah, that's how it is, I guess.
You missed what I meant. I never said it didn't matter how he got it, I said could you except it if he knew, but didn't tell you.
I am glad you'd tell someone about your sexual history, I really sincerely think this is important and could save lots of heart ache.
I also personally do not believe in the slut, whore rule either. I believe women should enjoy sex as much and as widely as men do, and anyone forced is wrong, but I'm not society.
I personally believe in forgiving, but I'm sorry, I'd never trust her again. Not about the rape, but if someone knowingly gave me an STD, no matter how mild, I could never trust her sexually again, because she knew.
I have personally stopped dating a woman that lied to me about birth control. We talked about it, we agreed, but later on I learned she'd lied, and she confessed she'd lied. She didn't get pregnant, but I stopped sleeping with her period.
How can we have a happy, healthy, sexual life if people refuse to be honest, no matter how hard?
I have tons of respect for a woman that can flat out say to me, you know, I use to be a prostitute, or, I was raped, or, anything else she needs to say.
Her honesty would make our sex life that much more enjoyable, because I can trust her.
It is sad to say, but if you can't trust you may as well go visit prostitutes. You know exactly what you are getting in to, and on top of that, you can say what type of sex you want.
I personally do not and have not, but you see my point.
If a woman wants respect, honesty, and trust, she must give it, or she can't expect it.
very well said, Wayne.
oh, and, I'd like to correct the misconception that men are the only ones who rape people. someone used the phrasing, "since men rape," and maybe it was just how he/she worded it, but I thought I'd clear that up, anyway.
Right on...though men are lumped into the rapist mold. yuck. But I want to address what was said about "used goods." I think what one considers used goods is not the same for another. Really it comes down to maturity level. You could argue that when my girlfriend stuck her hand down my pants, I was used. Isn't that laughable? Well, someone who is less secure may be threatened by such a thing. Thus I am labeled.
haha, Kev! good point :) And again, I didn't say only men rape, but it is, more men than women, unfortunately. so... yeah.
actually, we hear about more men but women do it enough... Back to the topic at hand:
If you do happen to be not as secure, it is a normal phase. I went through it, and I got over it.
Ok, lets see. "In this discussion he knows he has it no matter how he got it. He just doesn’t feel it is worth discussing, because A. she won’t catch it if he is careful. Or B. He is embarrassed to talk about his past, because he is hurt by it, and just can’t bare to admit he has a sexual disease. It is too painful, so he omits it. Didn't you state that he has it, no matter how he got it, huh? And who talked about omitting, for fear of imbarrissment? No one, so... I never said: A woman was raped, so she'll have to hide it from her partner, because she's too imbarrissed to talk about it. For the last time, let me break it down. obviously, she knows she was raped, and of course it wasn't her choice, she knows she has issues to take care of, she cares about herself and her partner, and thus, will tell him, but when she's ready, period. Thank you.
Okay you broke it down, but what is the reason she must get ready to talk about it? For what reason does she need to wait?
For the purpose of this discussion I am having a difficult time deciding if you agree, and would tell a man, or you don't and feel women are right for withholding?
You say on one hand you'd say, but started out defending women and yourself for not saying. Now you are back to the women is right to wait? In my example was the guy justified?
Others have stayed, or not said this debate has changed their minds yet. That is why we debate to learn and maybe through talking get people to decide they really are going to stand on their side or change. Where are you?
Kevin is right. we hear about mostly men being rapests, but the fact that supposedly they're the most common ones, is a false and ignorant view many members of society hold.
we also don't hear about rape near as often as it happens in reality, either. this is also a sad fact, but it's why the rape crisis center exists, to help disspell that idea/promote the truth.
so, since the man is too scared of his having warts in the first place, that justifies him not being honest with his partner, or taking the stance that, if he's careful, she won't contract them? I think not.
as was said, if someone is unwilling, for whatever reason, including fear, to be open about their sexual history/diseases they have, they shouldn't have sex, till such point their attitude changes.
I feel that if you've decided to enter into a long term relationship with a significant other, then it is not necessary to talk about exes specifically. That subject comes up eventually, so it can be discussed then.
When it comes to abuse, including rape, people should be upfront about it when deciding to take on a significant other. For the issue of rape, if a person is not ready to talk about it, they are not ready to enter into a trusting, intimate relationship. I have never experienced any kind of sexual assault, but I believe that it is something that changes a person as a sexual being. I imagine it would affect the way a person feels about certain movements, actions, words spoken, and sounds made in bed. I know it would cause them to have negative feelings about certain types of sex or sex altogether, about the sex or type of person who raped them. It takes strength and determination to talk about sexual assault with a potential sex partner, and I feel that being open about it with a partner can show that a victim is healing and coming to grips with the event and how it changed them. If a person reveals to a partner that they were sexually assaulted, and that partner rejects them and leaves them, that action does not show that partner is weak. It is good of that person to realize that being with a victim of rape is something that they cannot or do not want to deal with.
For STI's and STD's, the infected individual should absolutely be forthcoming about it. By not informing their partner, beforehand, they are endangering someone's health, and the health of other people that sex partner may be intimate with in the future. If a guy who was infected had sex with me and did not tell me he had a STI or STD, I would leave him immediately. I would be profoundly hurt, and would not be able to trust someone who selfishly put their own embarrassment or shame before my sexual and physical health.
I diametrically agree with Chelsey on this matter, especially about being willing to disclose sexual history/diseases.
Sharing is caring.
Lol.
The fear is that all men will brush off rape. I think that is the main reason why a woman would hide such a thing. It comes down to steriotypes of men in general. I personally find it deplorable but that's another topic all together.
I’d like to throw another thought in to this discussion.
We talked some about preventing rape, or at least making it less, or hopefully making the penalty greater and less of an issue to obtain when actual rape does happen.
I think rape is sexual, or a sexual act generated out of want, or need. It is not always violent, and many times happens with minimal force, as in the case of a small girl and an older or larger male, that has ignored her wishes, or has tricked her in some way in to sex because she doesn’t understand exactly what he is doing to her until after it is done.
In all cases it is a violation, because a person has used whatever means to take what he or she wants from another person.
This makes it wrong, but why do we have so much of it, and so much of it goes unreported, or even ignored. In some places it is thought of as how things are, natural even, because men have these uncontrollable forces!
All the issue related to sex I believe are caused by oppression. You’d think that with the internet, magazines, shows and movies with sexual subjects, or sex in them sex would be less of an issue, but it is not. It is oppressed strongly, by laws, religion, politics, and puritan society all being the majority.
Majority says you can’t want sex. You can’t look at beautiful women clothes or not and get sexually excited. You are not supposed to think about sex, and young boys are incurraged to ignore their body’s natural urges. Girls don’t have urges at all right, so we don’t even need to talk about this.
We have lots of ads about STD’s, unwanted pregnancy, but we don’t have any about sexual aids, or things that could make sex more pleasurable and safe do we?
Sex is a secret, nasty, unhealthy, even in a marriage if you are having too much of it, or wanting your woman to often.
The wife is encouraged not to give her husband some nasty fun sex, but to take that dirty boy to the pastor so he can be told his wife is not a whore and must be treated like a lady! Once a month is all you are to expect, and if you want more you are wrong.
For all the above is exactly why a woman is ashamed to talk about her rape, and why it probably even happened to her at all. It is law a wife can take her husband to court for raping her.
I believe that if we had more sex education and it was encouraged to be more widely available, not illegal to sell, buy, or in many cases even to have between consenting partners, we’d have less struggles, heartache, secrecy, and shame/rape.
We could wipe out many STD’s if people would just talk about them and seek help.
You are shamed because you got raped, because that was sex, but you will holler to the sky if someone robbed your home, stole your car, or assaulted you. We are comfortable talking about the time we got drunk, lied to our parents about something, sneaked out of the house and went to an all night party, but rape? It is sex!
Until sex becomes less oppressed we will have rape.
I am just simply curious, what kind of authority do you have in trying to speak for those who have been raped, abused, or sexually assaulted? Have you experienced any of these situations yourself? Do you know of someone who has experienced one of these situations? Have you done any research on this subject? Where exactly does your knowledge come from? I am simply curious because I happen to disagree with what you have said. However, rather than simply say that I believe you are wrong in your assumptions, I would like to keep an open mind to see where your thoughts and opinions come from. I find it rather disheartening when someone tries to speak for someone else when it appears as though they do not fully understand their experience. So I guess I am just wondering what your connection is to these experiences, and why you feel as though you are qualified to speak on behalf of those who have been through these experiences.
who, specifically, are you talking to, crazy cat?
In post 87, For Real states that rape is about sex and provides various reasons why he believes women are too ashamed to talk about their experience with rape. I am just wondering how it is that he knows how a victim of rape actually feels if he is not one himself. On what grounds does he have to speak for women who go through such a tragic situation? I do not believe that all women feel the way that he has described, nor do I believe that rape is about sex. So I am just curious as to where he might be getting his information. If anything, his post only seems to show that there are just some things that men do not really understand.
I respect your opinion, sapphire. No question. And crazy cat, the question that was asked to you, was just another one of those unnecessary things put out there, I understood who you were refering to, it made sence. Also, wane. Have you actually personally interacted with a woman that was only ashamed of being raped? Because, I mean, it's not only shame she feels, just in case you don't know it. A point I'd like to make out to you. Rape isn't solely based on sex, it's about strenkth, power and manupilation etc. Yes, the strenkth he used to force himself on her, the ungiven power he had to do it to her, and based on her trust/attachment, in some cases, the manipulation to get her into sex, for it wasn't something she understood until it was done to her. So, it was not by any means consentual. And, sadly, many cases of rape were caused by someone the other person knew. Hence, besides feeling ashamed, after understanding what was done to her, she mmay feel betrayed, hurt and very confused. So it's not only the physical harm, but the emotional damage. While sex shouldn't, and isn't oppressed, It should be understood, that each case is different, so it's not what should be done, but what can be done, and should be done, that works for her. Everything included. Oh, and you still asked why? Well, tell me, why not? Who are you, or who am I, to say what should be done? I never said what should be, but what can be, depending on her healing process, because her's isn't mine, and certainly, not yours to even control.
crazy cat, my question wasn't posed to you just for the hell of it.
I do disagree with Wayne about sex not always being about power, though/control, though.
It's okay. I was not offended by your question. It makes sense to me that you would want some clarification about who I was addressing in my post. If I had a problem with it, I would have said somethig in my response.
Now, I have a question?
Why wouldn't it be better to air all concerns so that you don't have relationship issues when it comes to intimacy? Why would a person want to wait, have problems, then get mad, because they didn't get the sympathy they felt they required?
Why can't a man not be able to deal with your problems, just like you can't?
Why is it his fault, and he's the weak one?
I know of a church that preaches you must double date for a while. Next, you can not hold a girls hand unless you are planning to marry her, because you'll lead her on and basicly cause her to give in and give you sex. Hold a woman's hand, her panties drop.
Hand holding leads to kissing, and well.
If you listen to this you'd think that women are air heads and haven't a mind.
They don't decide for themselves, and holding her hand leads straight to her heart.
So saying that, the man must always be the leader and the mentally stronger, no matter when you tell him? .
All these whys, why, was she raped in the first place? I'd personally tell my partner before intimacy, but, some are in denial, some feel are healed and they don't tell them because acording to them, they're all right, some feel it unnecessary, others are afraid, some even overconfident, many, many reasons why women don't tell their partners. I'm not saying it's right, or wrong, but somethings are hard to understand. I'm also not saying they shouldn't tell them, but for those who aren't ready, is because maybe they find it hard to trust their partner with such a horrible event. But eventually they do, right?
In response to post 94, if this question is directed towards me, then I would agree with what you said. It probably is best to talk about it. However, as I have already previously stated, for some people this conversation may be very difficult to have with someone for a variety of reasons.
I think different people react to different situations differently, so I do not believe it is reasonable for you to say that there should be one set way of dealing with this type of situation. Unless you have actually been raped, abused, or sexually assaulted, then how exactly do you know what it is like to deal with such a situation? From what I have observed, most men do not react to such a conversation in a positive way. So for me personally, I just feel as though that conversation, as well as that kind of relationship, is just not something I want to engage in at this point in time.
Feel free to disagree with me and my point of view, but for me personally, the pain is just not worth it anymore.
Since we are asking so many why questions, let me add one sensible one in here. Why would you believe that the victim of a rape want to know about the perpetrator's motives and intentions on raping them? I sure as hell wouldn't care right after the fact. Maybe farther down the road when I'm over it, I might be curious.
I meant to say, all these why's are interesting, for why, is a question that can't be answered all the time. But even so, we ask ourselves, why, without asparent reason. Why did he do this, if there was no reason, why did this happen, why, why, why? Though some why's, are valid, and, I've answered as many as possible, so, why? It wouldn't make a difference knowing or not, I say.
With all due respect, Dolce, you asked a question: When Should a person disclose that they were raped before being intimate with a partner? and I'm paraphrasing here. But that was the basic jist of how this conversation started.
So the question was answered by some, difinitively and concisely. If a person is really, truly heeling from the event of being raped, he or she would tell the partner before being intimate. And you say you agree, but then you trample on this sort of perspective by saying it's the person's choice to disclose this and when. Well, sure it is. But what is being established here is that, if heeling properly, the person would disclose this information before the relationship is too far along, preferably right off hand. If not heeling properly for a miriad of reasons, they would not disclose it, until, perhaps much later in the game, if not ever. But not disclosing it isn't good for anyone involved, don't you agree?
How can the lack of honesty before intimacy ever serve anyone well?
That's like saying, well yes, we all know we shouldn't sleep with someone we've only known for a minute,I wouldnt' do it, but who's to say it's wrong. It's wrong because of an overwhelming list of reasons that prove it to be unwise, desperate, risky and dangerous.
In the same sense, not disclosing the event of rape before intimacy is also unwise, risky, dishonest and generally not recommended.
I see your embracing a "let's empower the women" mantra, but you asked for perspectives. And you say you share the perspective personally, right as you disagree with it.
You're contradicting your own statements. Why?
If it's just for the sake of disagreeing with Chelsea, then that's counterproductive. Because whatever Chelsea may or may not have done, and whoever she may or may not be and whatever she may or may not say, she's clearly a rape victim. therefore, in this matter at least, you're getting the perspective right out of the horse's mouth.
So unless you too are a rape victim and you're offering a different perspective, why would you so vehemently disagree with so much of what's been said here. If you make a point, you need to stand by it or else it's not a very strong point.
You're not offering up a solid point of view when you say: well here's what I would do, and although it's the same as what you would do, you're wrong because... etc.
then, in a sense, you're also saying you yourself are wrong.
There's no need to get all filosophical here either, asking why this and why that. Simply put, most questions of "why" will always go unanswered. You went from a very specific solicitation of perspectives to a very vague defense, that's neither here nor there.
Why should we even be talking about this in the first place if we have no right to offer up a solid point, express it with conviction and back it up with facts.
There's no real debate if you actually agree personally with the stance. if you disagree, then you're disagreeing with yourself. but as it stands, you can't have your cake and eat it to.
Not trying to be vindictive, but pointing out some obvious discrepancies in your posts on this topic lately.
woh, talk about going round and circles.
OK, as I said much much earlier in this thread, ultimately the past will come up as a couple get to know and trust each other better; it's all in good time; apart from everything else, one wouldn't want to bombard the other all of a sudden with so much information.
And this of ocurse is the same with sexual abuse. No-one should feel they have to tell their partner about their past if it's not going to affect anything like a sexual relationship. Yes, it's a good idea to do this eventually but when it feels right for him/her to do so.
Of course if they have an STD, etc, they should definitely tell the partner before the sexual relationship starts up; that makes sense. But if the sexual abuse isn't going to affect a sexual relationship currently, there's not really much of a reason to tell the parter there and then if she doesn't want too.
As has been stated many times on other boards, sex isn't all about being in a relationship so with that in mind; if one just wants to have a one night stand, it might not be necessary to bring up the past again, if it doesn't affect the sex etc.
I'm not, in any way, difagreeing with myself. I strongly stand by the fact that it should, and can, be her choice... I've broken it down as many ways possible, even if I said I wouldn't, because, just as other people state their opinion with conviction, I state mine too. But no way, will I back off or drop it, if I have different ways of expressing it. I'VE EVEN STATED THE REASONS OF WHY I think what I do, putting forth examples, asking questions, and when there have been good valid points I've standed corrected. I mean it's ok to think, what one feels is right? So yes, you've brought forth good points which I haven't discarded, but sorry to say, this time, it's not how you see it. Or I at least didn't mean to make it seem that way, and for that I appologize. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I never, ever, have tried to seem as always correct. I said that to Lio, wane, you, and other users who've brought forth their wise points of view.
Ok, well then frankly, I have read and reread through your posts on here regarding this, dolce, and your point is extremely unclear. Whether you meant to or not, you come off as very contradictory and your posts are incoherent at times. You're not the only one by the way, but since I'm referring to you directly, that's what I have to say.
Forgive me for being nitpicky, but as a writer, such is my nature that I'll point out these things. May I suggest you, and all others, edit your posts for clarity and conciseness before releasing them into cyberspace. I feel we'd all be able to understand each other better if everyone's arguments were laid out in a neat, communicative manner that makes sense to the general poster.
Perhaps we'd have fewer disagreements and people could convey their points much quicker without going round in circles.
Some of us don't feel like frying our brains over a board post or several.
And to RD,
Please explain how sexual abuse won't affect further sexual relations of a victim. Sorry, but I know six rape victims personally, and each one has mentioned being affected sexually by the rape. Each one had been raped under individual circumstances, and yet the same conclusion was met by all.
If you're going to have sex, whether you know it or not, you're experience is going to be affected by your rape. Now sure, you may have a one-night stand and it's your choice not to disclose your abuse, but wouldnt' you agree that you'd probably feel very crumby about yourself after the fact?
I'd think so. Maybe not the next day, maybe not the next week. but definitely once you've begun your journey to true healing, you'd realize how you've hurt yourself further by not being honest with your sexual partner.
Perhaps rape victims would be better off waiting to have sex until they became comfortable with being honest about that part of their life with a potential sex partner.
I really can't imagine a rape victim not being affected by the experience during sex in the future. I won't be convinced until an actual rape victim rebukes my theory with a true statement that contradicts mine, or unless there is concrete evidence which can contradict my theory.
Thank you for the suggestion, bernadetta. I've really tried being clear in bringing my point across, however, I'll be sure to read, and be concise.
Present your warrants before attempting to dig up my backyard, otherwise keep dreaming if you believe the Rottweiler and 12 gauge are bypassable.
On a more serious note, be a stickybeak all you want, odds are you’ll still consider me a good candidate for sainthood.
Yes, writer says it good.
I'll add for the cat, it is always a choice of what you do, and if a woman feels she can't, shouldn't, or won't for any reason she is making a choice.
When you make a choice, and your choice negatively empacts your relationship, for any reason, you can't say your partner is wrong for his choices either, because he, like you, made a choice.
Sometimes due to behavior, the partner might understand completely, but doesn't have the will, ability, emotionally, to deal with a woman's after effects.
It is simple to me. If you decide to walk in to a wall, you know you might or might not get hurt. If you should not get hurt, your choice to walk in to the wall was good. If you get hurt, you can't blame the wall, because it didn't understand your motives and understodd you didn't want to be hurt.
Because, for some, sex is so emotional, tied to so many taboos, miths, religious dogma, and a host of other issues, I feel in order to have a good, carring, healthy, and enjoyable relationship, all should be revealed. It is much easier to work out details before something happens then after
Cat, if you feel you can't deal, and it is just not worth it, that again is your choice. I'd think the price you are paying is to great. If you could find a way to work things out in your mind and go on to have a good relationship with someone, seems that be better, especially whin you desire one.
Again that is a choice you can and should be able to make to be alone.
very well said, Bernadetta. I'm glad someone finally pointed out the contradictions being made in some posts.
as a writer, myself, my line of thinking is, if you don't even know what you're saying/trying to say, how can you expect others to?
you also brought up a great point, which is that all these questions of "why" that are being asked, will likely never be answered. not just that, but asking them, if you're a survivor, only hurts your healing process, in the end...just as not talking about it, does.
it hurts you, personally, most times, both physically and emotionally (it did me) even though I talked about it from the start. it also hurts the potential of any relationship you may have, whether it's purely sexual, committed, or even professional.
why would it hurt professional relationships, you ask? cause, if you aren't on the path of healing, you likely won't be able to deal with high or low pressure situations, constructive criticism, or anything else that's seemingly simple to handle, on the job or in life.
oh, and one more thing I wanna address, is this. I've seen people say that I wear the rape as a badge of honor, and act like I never went through hell. not on this topic, but elsewhere, and that's absolutely ridiculous and not at all representative of who I am.
am I grateful it has happened, cause of how I've grown from it? absolutely. do I feel it's the one thing in life I've grown the most from? absolutely. in feeling as I do, am I in any way advocating that how others handle it is invalid? no, and I never would.
every single rape case is different, every single person handles said experience differently, and every single person hearing about it reacts differently. although, I, personally, haven't found that many people react with an "I don't wanna hear about it, so shut up," tone, and those words have only been said to me by people who actually don't care about me as it is.
Yes, it would be nice to be in a relationship with someone who truly cares about me and treats me right, but it takes two people to make a relationship to work. If men truly see survivors of rape, abuse, and sexual assault as damaged goods as mentioned here on this board, then how much of a chance do I really have in finding any kind of serious relationship with someone who actually cares enough about me to treat me right?
I can understand the importance of disclosing such information with someone, but I have yet to find the best way to do it as well as the best time within the relationship to do it. I just feel like I am damned regardless of which choice I choose to make. When I am more up front about it, I am either told that I am only creating unnecessary drama or the guy really does not believe me. However, I can also understand the complications that come with not being up front about it as well.
The only time when I was not up front about it was with a guy that I had just met. I find my experience to be rather personal and would much rather get to know someone first before sharing this kind of information with him. I figured since I had just met him that if I tried to tell him what had happened to me that I would only scare him away. I guess I just wanted the chance to get to know him.
I can understand how people may claim that it is dishonest not to share this kind of information with someone. But when you have just met someone, are you truly being dishonest with someone by not sharing your whole entire life with them upon first meeting them? If this is the case, then I believe this guy was being just as dishonest with me as I was with him. And yet somehow I am still the bad guy in all of this because I found myself in a situation where I found it rather difficult to say much of anything at all.
And so yes, it would be nice to find a relationship with a man who truly cares about me and treats me right, but I am just really tired of always being rejected over something I never had any control over in the first place. This kind of rejection really hurts. I really wonder if there is a guy out there who actually understands any of this and is willing to accept me as a person despite everything that has happened to me. With all my bitter feelings towards men, I just believe it is better for me to take some time to heal first before trying to pursue another serious relationship.
I have never heard of women as damaged goods, except in textbook theories. Baggage? Like someone being an alcoholic, or any number of other things? Women do that also with us. But damaged goods? Come on, people! Someone is next going to say that they stone chicks.
Rape and sexual assault are crimes of power and control. Let's face it, boys, tell yourself the truth even if the feminists who need to paint us all bad won't hear it: Your Soldier could not remain at attention in the face of a terrified, pleading, weeping, screaming, injured woman. Not unless your aim was originally to control her. Rapists even use drugs on themselves to keep things up, if you will, so they can get it done.
Because, well, as a sexual turn-on, it doesn't work.
what should have been said, is that if *rapists* stopped raping. I understand where Dolce is coming from, I went to college through the Dead Men Don't Rape and Only Men can Stop Rape, movements.
Guess what? I am a man at 42 years of age who has never stopped or prevented a rape. I haven't been present when someone was accosted and prevented the situation from being carried out. Just because I happen to be a member of the overwhelming majority of men who doesn't rape doesn't mean I've actually stopped or prevented a rape.
However, I have known women who are either prosecutors, judges or police officers, and they all have prevented future rapes through arrests, prosecutions, trials and sentencing of actual rapists, placing the blame where it actually belongs. They're not cowards like some out here and those in the dead Men Don't Rape movement. They actually take on the real rapists. They deserve applause for their efforts.
Instead of giving real rapists a free pass by assigning rape to a whole gender, they actually ferret out, prosecute, try, convict and sentence real rapists who do untold and possibly immeasurable amounts of damage to victims, families, neighborhoods, the list goes on.
So, it's true, men like myself who are in the vast majority of men who have not raped, who simply live out our days as rape situations go, who aren't faced with an incident in progress to intercept, and are basically of no consequence. But people who subscribe to the Dead Men Don't rape, or Only Men Rape, or whatever the latest updated version of that thinking is, actually give real rapists a free pass, since they take the responsibility off the perpetrator on whom it belongs, and place it on an entire gender.
Who in their right mind would take the crimes committed by Susan Smith and similar, where the children have no chance to even heal, they're dead, and go place that responsibility on all women? Or claim 'if women would only stop killing children', or 'only dead women don't kill children?' That's shocking to even put forth as an idea, because of the difference society holds views about men and women.
And if you think a woman who has been raped is goods at all, let alone damaged goods, well perhaps you're so ignorant we'll sooner teach a horse to do algebra than bring you into the 21st century. I have no words for such people who would view someone in that light: it's like we're from completely different planets.
crazy cat, no, you shouldn't feel like you have to divulge something so personal, after just meeting someone. however, you should realize that, in order for things to truly start looking positive for your relationship prospects, you have to view yourself, and men, in a healthier light.
what I mean, is, there has to come a point when you realize the world isn't out to get you, whether it's men, in particular, or people, at large. you had a bad experience (or several) and those experiences were due to said people, or person, making a choice to hurt you.
that was their choice, and that shouldn't allow you to think, for a second, that the entire world will act similarly.
the same holds true for if you weren't believed. that's also specific to those who didn't believe you, rather than the world as a whole.
so, my words of encouragement are, trust in yourself, know that there's hope for a better life, and most importantly, know that it isn't your fault and that you don't deserve to suffer, period.
if you need a further ear, feel free to reach out. it's tough, believe me, but I can promise you that some of us do wanna help you towards your path of healing, if you'd welcome it.
So now I am not only a coward, but I am ignorant as well? And people really wonder why it is so difficult for someone to talk about their experience with rape, abuse, and sexual assault? Unfortunately, it seems as though people never really see you as quite the same once you share your experience with them.
It would seem as though most people never really know what to say after someone is actually courageous enough to share their experience with someone. And I do not mean just potential partners here either. It seems as though no one ever really sees you the same including friends and family as well.
I really wish there was a better way for those who have not experienced rape, abuse, and sexual assault to understand what it is like for someone who has been raped, abused or sexually assaulted. It just seems to me that no one ever really understands.
Why on earth would I want to reach out to others on here when I am just told that the choices I am choosing to make are wrong? I should not have posted what I have already posted on here anyway. I am sure that it will only be a matter of time before my ex who stalks me on here will only use what I have posted here against me. One of the things that I really hate is when people wonder why someone would choose to be in an abusive relationship rather than actually try to help her get out of the abusive relationship. I am just tired of hearing everyone tell me that what I am feeling, thinking, and choosing to do is all wrong. I just do not need those kinds of people in my life anymore.
I was the one that pointed out that **some** men that is **some** see women as damaged. I also pointed out it wasn't right, but just a fact.
I also never said, nor anyone else that you should say when you meet a person, only if you are planning to have intimate relations with him.
I also stated that if the intimate relations were not anything you hoped were going to build a lasting relationship, only casual, maybe a one night stand, then all you need talk about is health, but that is a different subject.
We are mainly talking about relationships you get in to to last here, so you'd not be sleeping with the person you just met, so you'd not be talking about your sexual history right away, I'd suppose anyway.
Crazy Cat, I never knew you were a rape victum only talking about your views on the subject. I don't know your personal life, but I sincerely don't buy everyone you tell doesn't believe you. On what bases can they not?
You did say **everyone** .
Every man is not going to have an issue with it at all.
You also seem to apply the terms ignorant and such other terms to yourself, when these terms, as I used them, especially are not targeted, but terms used to express what I'm saying, language.
Now, and read this carefully, if you are a rape victum, and understand you require help to get on in life, this is why you need to reach out. That statement is for **all* victums that require help. Reaching out will help.
This sight is not a professional center, so reaching out to someone here is only to share opinions. Even professional centers share opinions based on experience, but are where a victum should go for assistants.
crazy cat, I'm sorry to know you fail to see what I offered in my last post as genuine help. I was trying to help you see that not everyone is ignorant about rape or abuse, but take it as you will. I sincerely do hope that you're able to find a sense of peace, someday.
First off, nobody said that you, a victim of rape and perhaps more that you have not said, are a coward. In fact, no, you're gutsy to have spoken up. If someone has challenged a view that doesn't mean you should speak up.
I only said those on the sidelines, not victims like you, who chant the mantra that all men rape / dead men don't rape, or whatever the latest fad coming out of extremist groups would posit.
In fact, those extreme groups don't even help real suffering individuals like you. I think if you have the wherewithal you ought to continue to speak up. I don't remember any of your posts where you said anything at all about all men raping, that was someone else.
Rather than punish simply the gender we call male, we should punshi the individual, or individuals, who committed those horrific acts against your will.
Now, as to someone stalking you online, that also is a crime, and your local authorities or a crisis center such as the one Chelsea works at can assist you. My comments were never directed at you, because you never said the tings that I challenged. And I only called people what I called them, in the context of that situation.
Think about it like this: If we punish all males for the act against you, the man or men who did the act or acts against you are not properly dealt with. They're made out to be just like the rest of us. Now, if we as a society were to isolate and chastise, or in my book anyway, perhaps kill, the ones who violated you, we would at least have been able to start meting out justice. Though of course us who haven't been where you are can't ever fully realize if it's ever complete justice or not.
Please try to see things in context, not just on here but anywhere, knowing the difference between if someone is talking about you, or perhaps someone else. You never did say the things that others did about all of us being criminals. That wasn't you. You only spoke up just as Chelsea has.
Oh and Crazy Cat, Everyone on here, or at least the most reasonable, believes you. It must be confusing when you see a couple of conversations going back and forth, some of which involve you, like Chelsea telling you what it can be like on the other side, and some people wanting to let your perpetrator off while blaming an entire gender. It's probably got to be one of the most confusing things you've ever read.
leo is right, so, to that end, crazy cat, I get why you wouldn't wanna reach out. however, I encourage you to realize that just cause some haven't believed you, and just cause some here don't believe me, and think I'm talking for the sake of talking, that by no means signifies what the world would think, or does think.
Please forgive me Leo, I thought your comments were directed towards me. I probably should have asked for clarification in regards to who you were addressing in your post before overreacting to your comments.
In regards to For Real, yes, it does seem as though everyone I have told seems to have some kind of negative reaction to it or somehow see me differently after I tell them about it.
In all honesty, you are not me, nor do I have any reason to believe that you have been raped, abused, or sexually assaulted, so I fail to see how it is that you can tell me how it is that I should feel, or what choices I should make, or even how other people have reacted to what it is that I have been through in my life. I really wish you would stop trying to assume what I have been through, how it has made me feel, and what it is that you feel I should do about it. I am not you, nor will I ever be you, so please stop trying to make me like you.
On one hand, I hear you trying to say that not everyone has reacted negatively to my experience, but yet here you are trying to undermine my experience by questioning what has actually happened to me. No offence, but that just seems to be rather hypocritical to me.
No apology necessary. Only I do recognize how hard it is when everyone around you appears to not believe you, and it does make everything harder. There are many who would sympathize, or empathize, because to sympathize and empathize is to be human. This is why so many of us have referred to rapists as animals, because they lack that ability it seems.
Wait a minute! who on here said *all* min rape? Crazy Cat, I can see how confused you must feel, but I encourage you for speeking up. Oh, and, just to clarify, I didn't start this question just for the sake of having a question, for I recently went through a horrible experience myself. But I'm dealing with it, and Have dealt with it in a way that works for me, without by any means, telling others that my way is the only way, rather more, why it has and is working for me. That includes, what others can do, not what others should do. So...Lio I understand you're older than most of us here, and with all due respect, I encourage you to read the context, rather than just say someone said *all* men rape, because what someone and others here have said is that *men* rape, and women do it too. Thank you.
considering leo just said that he wasn't lumping one group of any kind into one category, dulce, your post really was unnecessary. maybe you should take your own advice, and read posts more carefully, before jumping to any conclusions whatsoever.
The only thing I have been confused about is who Leo was addressing in his post. Since it was posted right after mine, I wrongly assumed that he was addressing me in his post. Otherwise, I am really not confused at all. If anything, I am a bit frustrated by people making assumptions about me that may or may not be true.
I really hate it when people talk to me or about me as if they are somehow me when the truth is they barely know me in the first place. People react to different situations differently, and I do not believe it is right to judge someone as right or wrong when they are just choosing something different than what you might have chosen.
That is why I should have referenced a post by number to have made things clearer. And I'm sorry Dolce if you also were the victim of a crime in that space. I don't think any of us are saying how you can or can't respond to that sort of a situation. But clearly we can see there are multiple ways to respond to the same, or similar, situations.
My only challenge is to target the actual offenders, which no victim could possibly be expected to do themselves, this is why we have society, and even with courts and the like victims of any number of circumstances have trouble.
And everyone, no exception, is likely to defend their own way of dealing with something, as a valid way to do it. That's just self-preservation.
But isn't trying to understand the situation part of trying to empathize? Of course, the friend, family member, whoever it is won't know exactly what it was like as you have. However I do see what you are saying. Sometimes people can be overbearing without realizing it. Some people are more natural about it. You, however, are the one with the feelings and experiences, and you are the one who decides what you want to do at your own pace. I hope you find the right path and get through this, and you can message me if you want to talk or need to vent. I will make suggest, but I won't tell you what to do. Big difference there.
I mean I will make suggestions.
Oh, I understand, Lio... Thank you.
Ryan, in all honesty, in most cases, people don't want advice or suggestions dulled out, when they've gone through traumatic experiences. most times, they simply need someone to listen, as knowing someone is there for you, even if it's just in sitting beside one another silently, it's much more powerful than people generally think.
Thank you, Ryan... while listening to people is rather powerful, some, may take suggestions, and if you've got to offer that, thank you.
yes, suggestions in addition to just listening, can be helpful, as long as they aren't given in a judgmental/critical way
FYI: I'm not only saying what I did in my last post based on my personal experience, but I also happen to be on a team of experts of a nationwide organization that share the same philosophy as I presented, about listening, more than talking, being a more effective tool when someone is in crisis.
ah. Well that's something that I'm better at doing. Deffinetly more of a listener, and it makes sense.
But Crazy Cat, I have not assumed anything at all about you. I was in a debate about what I thought about a question that was posed.
I stated my opinions and why.
I can’t assume anything about you, because I’ve not spent enough time around you to do so, but I will and have stated my opinions on what I think is best in the situation, even to the point of saying if the woman feels she can’t handle it she should not get involved until she can.
If you want me to say you are right, it won’t happen no matter what your situation is, because frankly I disagree.
Honesty is the key, and I feel, if we can’t have it in a relationship, and I’m stating for me, I don’t want to be in one with that woman. No, I am not the type of man that would leave her if she told me later on in our relationship about things, but if I had my way, I’d hopefully get told at the beginning.
If she’s got issues, I’d like to know, so I can help her, and maybe that help means instead of getting in to an intimate relationship with her, I need to just be her friend.
I have stated I strongly believe this holding back is why we have so many problems in relationships. It causes so much suffering, pain, and such things.
This topic is a debate, not a personal summary of what I think specifically about Crazy Cass’s life. I am sorry you took it as such, but it isn’t.
I have forgotten to say others have agreed with me. Not personal Crazy Cat. Smile.
Well then, I guess I am sorry that I do not live up to your standards of honesty in not wanting to reveal my whole damn life with someone after only one or two dates with them. Why people feel the need to debate someone’s personal experience is beyond me. In some ways, I think it just adds to the problem and leads to victims of rape, abuse, and sexual assault to not want to talk about their experiences. Why talk about it when it only seems to turn into a big debate that men never really seem to understand anyway? And whenever I say that i actually agree with you, it seems as though you are only then telling me that I am making the wrong choice. Men and their stupid double fucking standards !
And now that I think about it, how can it not be fucking personal when you personally addressed me in one of your posts and specifically stated that I was making the wrong choice when I said that that perhaps a relationship might not be the best thing for me. How the fuck is that not anything personal against me?
And that I contradict myself? No, not at all! Maybe I need to proofread and better my writing, but if one reads the content, I do not, by any means contradict myself. So... while I'm not a writer, I don't see myself as incoherent, sorry, professionals. I'm not belittling the points that truely make sence, but those that are just echos, the unclear ones, because, heck, I have thoughts too, huh? And like I said countless times, I'm not backing off, or making my point vague, nor am I going against it. Wane has a few good points, bernadetta has some helpful suggestions, Lio makes sence, Cat is trying to defend her point of view, Rachael and Ryan express what they think is write, and so on. While not all the why's can be answered precisely, I along with others have read the posts, and some of us aren't seeming as though they're not making scence. But again, if for those who whe can't seem to make sence out of them, because quight frankly, they're righters and have a greater scence of knollidge, I, truly appologize.
I’m sorry, I probably should have been more clear about the contradictory and personal posts. In post 131, For Real states that he has said nothing personal against me, and that if a woman cannot share her experience with her partner, then perhaps it is best for her not to get involved in a relationship.
I actually agree with this idea and stated back in post 96 that this kind of conversation, as well as this kind of relationship is just not something I want to engage in at this point in time.
In post 105, For Real responds to this statement by addressing me personally when he states the following:
Cat, if you feel you can't deal, and it is just not worth it, that again is your choice. I'd think the price you are paying is to great. If you could find a way to work things out in your mind and go on to have a good relationship with someone, seems that be better, especially when you desire one.
Now I am just wondering, how exactly is this not anything personal towards me? Does this advice not contradict your original point that if a woman cannot talk about her experience with rape, abuse, and sexual assault that she should not be involved with a relationship in the first place? It would seem to me that not only do I agree with your point, but I am also trying to live it out as well. And yet somehow my decision is still wrong? I guess I just do not understand.
Please forgive me, but it just seems as though you are arguing for argument sake, and feel the need to be right all the time even if it contradicts your previous point. Personally, I think people who do this are only jerks, but hey, what the hell, most guys are just jerks anyway.
But anyway, I am tired of always having to defend myself all the time. So I just do not see the benefit of having people like you in my life anymore. Sorry if I have offended anyone here, but I am just really starting to get pissed off here. If you claim that it is not personal, then do not make it personal by personally addressing me.
I certainly agree it's everyone's choice whether or not to divulge such a traumatic experience to their partner. I know that for me at least I'd prefer to know about it before we beae intimate, not merely because of the possibility of STDs but also it might explain it if my partner had seemed nervous or reluctant when things seemed to be taking an intimate direction. It might help me avoid doing things that might trigger unpleasant associations for them.
Crazy Cat... I've learned a lot from this debate. First off, try not to take it personal. It takes all types of people to debate. those of us who defend ourselves and points countless times, those who contradict their points just for the sake of being right, those who are genuinely trying to help, those who's hypocritical statements go against their philosophys and course of action, people who make sence, have great suggestions and bring forth wise points of view on the subject. And all have validity. So, regardless if certain people understand or not, I'd stick to my truth, and if what I think feels right, and has worked for me, I'd take the bits of helpful information that would be useful to my healing. After all, there'll be people in your life, for a long or short time. However, you'll always live with you, for you. :)
Forereel did address you directly in these postings, but generally not personally.
I did so due to some direct statements you said disagreeing with me, so I had to add your name.
My address were as I said general, and not because I know your exact issues, or what has happened to you in your life. I only have what you have written to address.
Again, we are debating, and if you address me and disagree with a point, I'm going to address you.
My addresses are complete, meaning what I think for everyone not you specificly. My thoughts are net not singular.
Now here is another general statement. It makes me sad when I hear women and men have a negative opinion of the other sex. I really belive if the negative parties would do some communicating they'd learn that all is better then they think.
I personally love women, and think they are well worth my time, love, and care. I dislike anything done to them that hurts them.
I'm only one man, not the world and I can not dictate.
Hmm, well I think you have brilliantly illustrated why I am not all that impressed with the male species as well as why I do not particularly enjoy discussing issues about rape, abuse, and sexual assault with members of the opposite sex. Why you feel the need to turn every conversation into a great debate is beyond me.
See, cat... you can drop it if you wish. Because there're loving, compassionate and caring men in this world...
I wasn't awear this was a conversation between us Crazy Cat. It is a discussion I'm posting on.
I'll not address you anymore on this discussion.
Right on Dolce; don't feed the trolls; it's just what they want.
In this instance I'm defining trolls as the people who don't know how to get their point of view across without a personal attack.
You've made yourself very clear and if these said trolls choose to continue belittling you, they don't deserve your further explanations;
They enjoy picking on you to make themselves feel better.
ignoring them from now on is the best thing you can do.
Thank you, Rachael. I've learned lots. :)
I know we were talking about this privately but just wanted to put it out there for the benefit of others as well; and this is also how I conduct myself from now on; I won't be feeding any more trolls! :)
Like I said both privately and publicly, I'll only take what works from me, from the wise people who actually make scence... the rest is just filling... it's a debate, after all
It will come up sooner or later though.
On ya Dolce! :)
Debating all good!